Journals of the Senate
48 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1999, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 155
Thursday, September 9, 1999
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Ghitter, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Perry (Poirier), Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Ghitter, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Perry (Poirier), Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt
PRAYERS
Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Robert René de Cotret, P.C., former Senator, whose death occurred July 9, 1999. Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Alan Macnaughton, P.C., former Senator, whose death occurred July 16, 1999.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Tribute was paid to the memory of Mr. Jean Drapeau, former Mayor of the City of Montreal, whose death occurred August 12, 1999. Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Ghitter presented the following:THURSDAY, September 9, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources has the honour to present its
SEVENTH REPORT
Your Committee, to which was referred the Bill C-32, An Act respecting pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and human health in order to contribute to sustainable development, has, in obedience to the Order of Reference of Tuesday, June 8, 1999, examined the said Bill and now reports the same without amendment, but with observations which are appended to this report.Respectfully submitted,
RONALD D. GHITTER
Chair
(The observations are printed as an Appendix)The Honourable Senator Taylor moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its Twenty-third Report (Bill S-30, An Act to amend the Act of incorporation of the Board of Elders of the Canadian District of the Moravian Church in America) without amendment.
The Honourable Senator Taylor moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poy, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Grafstein presented a Bill S-31, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act (Parliamentary Poet Laureate).The Bill was reading the first time.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cook, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading on Tuesday next, September 14, 1999.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton presented petitions:Of Members of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers from Montreal concerning Bill C-78, An Act to establish the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Canada Post Corporation Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act. The Honourable Senator Adams presented petitions:
Of Residents of Nunavut Territory concerning Bill C-32, An Act respecting pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and human health in order to contribute to sustainable development. The Honourable Senator Cochrane presented petitions:
Of Residents of Newfoundland and Labrador concerning Bill C-78, An Act to establish the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Canada Post Corporation Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kirby, seconded by the Honourable Senator Sibbeston, for the third reading of Bill C-78, An Act to establish the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Canada Post Corporation Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tkachuk, that the Bill be not now read a third time but be read a third time on March 9, 2000, or so soon thereafter as the Senate is sitting.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was negatived on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Buchanan, Cochrane, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Ghitter, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Lawson, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Roche, Rossiter, Simard, Stratton, Tkachuk-27NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Graham, Adams, Austin, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Furey, Gill, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kenny, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercier, Milne, Pearson, Pépin, Perry (Poirier), Poulin, Poy, Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Ruck, Sibbeston, Sparrow, Stewart, Taylor, Watt-46ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Prud'homme-1The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kirby, seconded by the Honourable Senator Sibbeston, for the third reading of Bill C-78, An Act to establish the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Canada Post Corporation Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Kelleher, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robertson, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Consideration of the Twelfth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (Question of Privilege of the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C.), presented in the Senate on June 16, 1999.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Finnerty, that the Report be adopted.After debate, The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Doody, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.Order No. 4 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, for the adoption of the Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (restructuring of Senate committees) presented in the Senate on June 2, 1999.After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Lawson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Doody, that the Report be not now adopted, but that it be amended by striking out proposed Rule 85. (2.2)(a) and substituting therefor the following:
"(2.2)(a) The Committee of Selection may make a rec ommendation to the Senate that two additional members be added to any standing committee."Debate.
______________________________________
Pursuant to Rule 13(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8:00 p.m.The sitting resumed.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, for the adoption of the Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (restructuring of Senate committees) presented in the Senate on June 2, 1999,And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Lawson, seconded by the Honourable Senator Doody, that the Report be not now adopted, but that it be amended by striking out proposed Rule 85. (2.2)(a) and substituting therefor the following:
"(2.2)(a) The Committee of Selection may make a recommendation to the Senate that two additional members be added to any standing committee."After debate, The Honourable Senator DeWare moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robertson, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.Orders No. 6 and 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 46 (inquiry), 1 (motion), 74, 34, 76, 78, 73 (inquiries), 118 (motion), 63, 47 (inquiries), 145 (motion) 65, 79, 82 (inquiries), 143, 127 (motions) and 49 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Poy calling the attention of the Senate to the Dragon Boat Festival.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 114 (motion), 68, 50 and 64 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable Senators, I am prepared to rule on the question of privilege raised yesterday by the Honourable Senator Kinsella. As you will recall, Senator Kinsella received a letter from Dr. Shiv Chopra, alleging that his employer, Health Canada, has harassed him because of his testimony before a committee of the Senate. Senator Kinsella reminded us of the privileges accorded to parliamentary witnesses and our obligation to protect them from any retaliatory measures that might be taken against them for giving their testimony.In response to a question of the Honourable Senator Stewart, Senator Kinsella confirmed that he had a written letter of complaint from the witness, which included details of the allegation. With leave of the Senate, Senator Kinsella tabled the letter.
I will quote again the essence of the allegation from Dr. Chopra's letter:"I tendered a personal example [of harassment] involving a five day suspension which my employer, Health Canada, imposed against me and which I stressed was, in fact, the latest of a series of retaliatory actions. I mentioned that all these actions were the direct consequence of my testimony which I was requested (required) to give before the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry for its Bovine Growth Hormone (rBST) investigations."The Honourable Senator Carstairs noted that there was a difference in opinion between Health Canada and Dr. Chopra. In her words,
"It is clear that there is some disagreement as to why this penalty was imposed. We know, for example, that Dr. Chopra feels that this was his appearance before this Agriculture Committee that resulted in his penalty. We have had correspondence with the Deputy Minister of Health which would indicate that that was not the case."Senator Carstairs, however, refrained from attesting to the position taken by Health Canada, preferring to let the Senate make its own determination of the facts, if it felt so inclined.
It is clear to me that Dr. Chopra is convinced that his appearance before one of our committees has caused him harm at the hands of his employer. During the discussion of this question of privilege, I did not receive firm evidence that the employer acted for reasons other than those alleged. I am very reluctant to intervene in what could well be an unfortunate difference between an employer and its employee, a possibility indicated by the statements made by Senators Kinsella and Carstairs and Dr. Chopra's own letter. I also do not wish to dismiss out of hand what amounts to a very serious allegation, indeed. As it stands, a witness before a Senate committee has made a claim, which, if true, may well represent a serious contempt of this place. As yet, there is little evidence offered against the claim. The chronology of events as outlined by Senator Kinsella at least suggests that the claim could be true. I therefore find that a prima facie question of privilege has been established according to the provisions in Rule 43(1). I invite Senator Kinsella to move the appropriate motion.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare:That the matter concerning a witness who appeared before the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders for investigation and report.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Poy called the attention of the Senate to the plight of Chinese migrants on the B.C. coast.After debate, The Honourable Senator Robertson for the Honourable Senator Carney, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Summaries of the Corporate Plan for 2000 to 2004 and of the Capital and Operating Budgets for 2000 of the Business Development Bank of Canada, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4). -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1275.Report of the Information Commission for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1999, pursuant to the Access to Information Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1, s. 38.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1276.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Sibbeston:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.______________________________________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural ResourcesThe names of the Honourable Senators Chalifoux and Moore substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Finestone and Fitzpatrick (September 8).